Mindscrew Mafia 6.0

And it seems fitting to go back to where I started, fighting the rules.

Vote: The King of Eggs
FoS: The King of Eggs

FYI, in case you didn't see it, Eggs edited Scarfalot's flip:

The King of Eggs wrote: Sir_Scarfalot, Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North [Doctor Who], Town Political Manipulatior, DELETED Night 1.

There's our Doctor Who role, to tie in with UNIT/Osgood.


Alex, in Day 1 you had a lot of words fancily capitalised - any particular reason, or just flowery fun?


Sid, do you have anything in your role that indicates what you would show up as if someone investigated you?

Supreme Overlord wrote:FYI, in case you didn't see it, Eggs edited Scarfalot's flip:

The King of Eggs wrote: Sir_Scarfalot, Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North [Doctor Who], Town Political Manipulatior, DELETED Night 1.

There's our Doctor Who role, to tie in with UNIT/Osgood.


Alex, in Day 1 you had a lot of words fancily capitalised - any particular reason, or just flowery fun?

I had missed the update, clearly someone was blocking that information somehow. Basically what I assumed, down to the "Don't you think she looks tired" quote in my head, but nice to see it confirmed.

My capitalisations were a bit of both. "Fool" to mark that sentence as a reference to my passive, but not capitalise the obvious Enemy See options (or the Fool Your Eyes framing). The Rules was flowery fun to make it A Thing to vote for. I considered Da Rules, but didn't want to pollute my origins with a reference to a cartoon I'm not from.

The Colours and Souls stuff I stand by what I said earlier, they are relevant to me. Mist was just Smoke by another name, a hint of my passive.

Supreme Overlord wrote:Sid, do you have anything in your role that indicates what you would show up as if someone investigated you?

Indeed, I will show as neutral, or as a color that would represent neutral.

Haven't got the time to read the defense in detail, so for now I will Vote: Alex Steiner.
I wonder if the evidence the defense is posting came after Electrix's truth-seeing ability was revealed... As said, I don't have the time right now to read the defense.

If anyone has a shielding ability, use it on Electrix, I beseech you xD

Oh, and FoS: The King of Eggs

Dark Vessel wrote:Haven't got the time to read the defense in detail, so for now I will Vote: Alex Steiner.
I wonder if the evidence the defense is posting came after Electrix's truth-seeing ability was revealed... As said, I don't have the time right now to read the defense.

Most of the hints were in my more flowery language before I got serious, which was before Electrix's claim came out. The post where I used Mist instead of Smoke was just after Electrix's claim, bundled with the segment of Sid's poetry I'd already highlighted in earlier posts (and smoke is part of why I engaged with it in the first place). The "suspicion goggles" are a much later inclusion, continuing the lens/seeing/glasses thing that was established early on.

Dark Vessel wrote:If anyone has a shielding ability, use it on Electrix, I beseech you xD

That brings me to something that I want to bring out to the Town discussion, so it isn't left to the scum to manipulate: The targeting issues that got Scarf killed instead of me, messed with Darth and Overlord's investigations, and locked Sid up instead of Overlord. Anyone that says it'll be the same on the next night is maybe just mindscrewy enough to be the Mod, but I don't think so. Something will mess with the abilities, and if we're discussing how the town thinks abilities should be targeted (which as I said earlier, more voices is better), we also need to consider how we'll deal with an unknown disruption.

Do we guess "off by one" in the other direction? Down by 2? Rotating to opposites is not possible with an odd number of targets, a looping off-by-3 is conceivable. No disruption at all could be worst of all (they're playing mindgames, have exhausted the ability temporarily, or something else)?

Darth and Overlord's investigates are a good tool to find out afterwards, since they have no incentive to use them otherwise.



Though as I type that I notice that there's no rule to say they have to use their investigate, and it's possible they have a different ability to use instead. Rereading the character pages for the two of them, they are the digital ghosts of old enemies that have been imprinted on living people, seeking to continue their old war, and they threaten to kill a bunch of people to get to their enemy. The episode ended with their consciousnesses fading from the minds of the hosts (who were imprisoned for the safety of the crew). It's quite convenient that Overlord's investigate fizzled on himself, because I'd really start to wonder if Phoebus or Thalan would seek to DELETE the other, and I'm just vain enough to assume Supreme Overlord would target me for the kill (hitting Scarf instead). There's nothing to say they're both Town, and Darth was first mover on the claim.

It's not hard evidence, but it fits the facts I have in front of me. Supreme Overlord is a killer, maybe alone or with a scumbuddy that has a simpler win condition. He is paired with the Town Darth Skywalkerbacca in a rivals pairing across factional lines (and to the slight detriment of both teams, if Overlord has one). Overlord used what Darth laid out for the Town wincon to claim, how the ability targeting worked, and the redirect (though if my theory is right, Overlord saw Scarf die and knew something was up with targeting immediately).

The biggest hole in my theory so far is the straightforward wincon claim post he made for Electrix to test, soon after mine.
What if Electrix chose to test that instead? Supreme Overlord was confident enough that Electrix wouldn't out him, either through some kind of ability inverse of House or myself, or trusting that Electrix would lie to protect him (after he'd established an investigation alibi for himself with his bedside manner claim). Maybe he was just betting on Electrix's decision to check me instead.

On that note, I've been nursing the suspicion that House is the type of doctor to tie up a patient and keep them for treatment. Electrix, is this true, and if so, who did you target to end up hitting Sid? Can you go on record with that now, so it can be used to help the Town understand the roles?

I won't trust Electrix's words completely, given the inadvertent link to Overlord, but it's helpful to get it in public so the Town can discuss it.

A lot of my evidence depends on other evidence that is given by untrustworthy sources. Can anyone confirm how the targeting works, so my conclusion that I was the target instead of Scarf holds up? What I said before I started connecting things with red string is still important, we need to plan for the Night, and discuss how best to use abilities like a protection.

Unvote
Vote: Supreme Overlord

If your investigate tells you who you need to kill, why would you use it on the chronically killed Darth Skywalkerbacca? Surely a Town Frenemy would want to know if their target was likely to live for a while? Not someone confirmed town, and not someone already under suspicion, since those are death flags.

I really don't buy Darth as a good investigate target in your spot, unless you really wanted the ability to fizzle on yourself for an easy fake.

[/quote]

Sir Scarfalot, Member of Resplect

So I’m back! Yey!

Um, and all the votes reset? Well anyway, Vote: Dark Vessel to see if that gives the ??? vote. If it doesn’t, then I’ll be less sus of him and more sus of Electrix.

Welcome back, Sir Scarfalot. Do you have any information about your morning in the grave? I speculate that it was that effect that blocked votes until now. I wonder if it's a dark mirror to the UNIT intervention that saved you the first time.

I will repeat my Vote: Supreme Overlord for all the reasons stated above.

Woo, what an exciting couple of posts - I don't have time to fully pick them apart right now, but to get things going:

My theory is that all/most of us have investigation-inverting abilities, hence Dark Vessel scum, and Alex likely town.  I was wondering how that interacts with Scarfalot both investigating as Town and flipping as Town - does a mod not-a-lynch investigate overrule an investigation-inverting ability?
Now that Scarfalot is back, that puts further doubt to me that the flip was accurate.
FoS: Sir Scarfalot
(also, welcome!)

The way my investigate works is that it just tells me Thalan/non-Thalan (though the wording is 'enemy').  If I successfully identify, it enables my double vote on them, and them only (sure would be nice to have a kill, but it just makes them slightly easier to lynch).  I used it on Darth because I was pretty sure he was Thalan - I can go back through the evidence if you like, but as Darth said in his first post today, he left a good number of breadcrumbs (and I finally noticed them in time).  I don't need to investigate anyone else; if I'd targeted Darth and he'd died anyway, yay for me.

Vote: Dark Vessel

Darth quoted part of his role PM and hasn't been modkilled for it - should I quote mine so you can see how it works?

My first ever post was me saying I'm too not evil to not be evil. In reference to my being investigated as opposite to the investigator.
I then made it clear that my role wasn't from anything recent and I specifically quoted a post from Sid with a comment on the wording because it actually very neatly identified my Town role to whoever my pair was.
I wasn't being subtle about it, and Overlord definitely would have picked it up and gone for the investigate because he's competitive like that.
As I have always said, I don't think he's scum. Still it would be appreciated if you would kindly die Overlord. Please and thank you.
The amount of incorrect role reveals on investigation abilities does not seem to balance with the amount of investigation abilities in this game. Anybody else think that?
If Electrix had been lynched day one then all of these abilities would be for naught.
As such I'm going to FoS: Alex Steiner
I would like more information on your roles please otherwise this will be escalated into a vote.

Having now reread Darth's earlygame with fresh eyes, I can see how the hints are there, so it is plausible that Overlord caught them and targeted him for investigation. I didn't consider the bonus for successfully investigating your target, even if you "knew" who it was from their posts, so I dismissed the idea you'd investigate if you knew. It's certainly a neat story, which fits the facts we have. Still, doesn't prove you're town any more than my speculations prove you're not. I'd still like Electrix to clarify his part in my assumptions there before I put them to bed.

Darth Skywalkerbacca wrote:The amount of incorrect role reveals on investigation abilities does not seem to balance with the amount of investigation abilities in this game. Anybody else think that?
If Electrix had been lynched day one then all of these abilities would be for naught.
As such I'm going to FoS: Alex Steiner
I would like more information on your roles please otherwise this will be escalated into a vote.

I can chip in for both of these, since I have an investigation too. Without the exact wording, I illuminate a player with brilliant flames to reveal their innermost desires/role (soul?). Only I can discern their role that night, anyone else just sees blinding light. I am Chandra Nalaar, Town Pyromancer, from Magic: The Gathering. With my goggles I can stare into the flames that others can't (and the smoke I leave behind that spoils my reputation). I channel Red mana to cast my spells (but chickened out and picked Orange instead), and on seeing Sid's list of 4 colours so soon after Smoke, I wondered if there was something in the missing White (if we assume Black is Purple, which it commonly is in the artwork.

I have Red hair, and so have no Soul. I don't know anything about any other souls, but I made my claim 5/7 on the balance of probability that 1/6 others would also be a redhead. My role and abilities do not actually use the word Soul. I win when none but Town are alive (but given my shady passive and typical mindscrew, I wondered if the Town wasn't really the uninformed majority in this place).

Night 1, I investigated Supreme Overlord (of course), and I found no-one and nothing. At first I thought he'd evaded me using some power, and I didn't connect it to the jailer-effect on Sid until Overlord's helpful post about the global redirect. I assume that in the order of operations I am behind the Jailer, but ahead of other investigations.

And now I can say it, the MTG hint in the D1 vote counts was infinitely more searchable than some of those others. The ones I "get" are the ones already revealed, the rest super ambiguous when searched.

But if you google "second main bolt bird", MTG is right there.

Lots of investigations in different flavours, and a combination of commonplace spoofing and redirecting to mean they're not very useful (and more likely to make us fight among ourselves for the Mod's amusement).

Alex Steiner wrote:The biggest hole in my theory so far is the straightforward wincon claim post he made for Electrix to test, soon after mine.
What if Electrix chose to test that instead? Supreme Overlord was confident enough that Electrix wouldn't out him, either through some kind of ability inverse of House or myself, or trusting that Electrix would lie to protect him (after he'd established an investigation alibi for himself with his bedside manner claim). Maybe he was just betting on Electrix's decision to check me instead.

You may have missed at least what my intent was here.  I'd already claimed investigation-inverted.  If I was investigated, I was expecting my true statement (which is why I started with Phoebus first - something hopefully everyone would believe was true) to show up as false to Electrix's ability.  Potentially implying that Dark Vessel's 'true' statement is actually false (whereas if my investigation-inverting ability didn't affect Electrix's lie detection, being investigation-immune scum wouldn't help Dark Vessel there, therefore they would actually be Town).

Also, you clearly think I'm more dangerous than Sid, as claimed neutral survivor?

(Ninja'd Alex claim - I think I believe it; fits everything else I currently suspect about the setup)

[/quote]
[/quote]

[quote="Supreme Overlord"]

Alex Steiner wrote:Also, you clearly think I'm more dangerous than Sid, as claimed neutral survivor?

I perhaps got carried away with my big brainwave about Overlord, Sid still has to die as well. I'd rate him somewhat lower threat than you simply because he was tied up N1 and I infer not the killer (that afaik targeted me).

To formalise it, and in recognition of the outstanding questions for Electrix that influence my opinion of Overlord, I'll Vote: Sid_The_Kid and leave my FoS: Supreme Overlord. Electrix gets dishonourable mention by association.

Still nothing from Sir Scarfalot's double vote, please try again. I assume it'll be affected by all the investigation blocking as well, but it's data we can feed into the machine. If you can, cycle through the roster. I'm cynical enough to assume some limitation on how often you can switch it, or how effective it is, or something to escalate your ongoing post restriction (good job keeping that up, by the way).

Interesting; we did get an Armistice 2; but it didn't coincide with the first vote count reset of the day.

Vote: Dark Vessel
FoS: Sid The Kid
(It is annoying to have to keep reapplying votes; but it did help me think about which one I wanted my actual vote on.)

It occurs to me it might be useful to keep a neutral survivor around, blocking the Town win con until both Darth and I can be killed, then triggering a Town win.  It is a bit of a long shot play, but it interests me.

Sid, can you elaborate on the requirements for your win? Is it as vague as 'survive until endgame', or do you have any details about what might trigger endgame?

My position is clear. Vote: Alex Steiner

SO MUCH TO UNPACK. I am legitimately getting excited by all the developments that are happening, and am so bummed I haven't been there to witness it all directly as it happens.

Alex Steiner wrote:The biggest hole in my theory so far is the straightforward wincon claim post he made for Electrix to test, soon after mine.
What if Electrix chose to test that instead? Supreme Overlord was confident enough that Electrix wouldn't out him, either through some kind of ability inverse of House or myself, or trusting that Electrix would lie to protect him (after he'd established an investigation alibi for himself with his bedside manner claim). Maybe he was just betting on Electrix's decision to check me instead.

I don't really have an easy way to deny this. I personally made the decision to investigate you, mostly due to you being the first one to make a very outward claim that you had a town win/con. To me you really wanted me to use it on you, almost obviously. If you are aware that you have a passive that will reveal you as scum, you wouldn't be so eager to put yourself on the chopping block. I figured by investigating you it would at least give some insight. I can tell you as much as I'd like that I didn't investigate Overlord or cover for him, or lie about investigating you. You have to take my word on that, but it's the truth.

Your theory on everyone who is investigated revealing the opposite role to the one they have makes sense to me. I was fairly hasty to vote for you as the investigation did say that your statement contained a lie, but upon reflection, it was definitely very hasty, given that there are at least plenty of valid reasons to suspect most if not all of us have this passive. My point about you being so eager to "put yourself on the chopping block" also backs this up as well.

Alex Steiner wrote:On that note, I've been nursing the suspicion that House is the type of doctor to tie up a patient and keep them for treatment. Electrix, is this true, and if so, who did you target to end up hitting Sid? Can you go on record with that now, so it can be used to help the Town understand the roles?

That's actually a very good theory, and I'm almost kind of sad that it isn't the case. I did not choose to save Sid on Day 1. I presume you are suggesting Sid was the one who was saved on the fact that Sid was "Found tied up and medicated. I took the word "medicated" not as "he was treated (aka saved)" but more "He was out knocked out and was medicated as a form of sedation". I could be misunderstanding your point here though. If so, apologies for that.

On Day 1 I chose to save Overlord. I know saying this really doesn't help my case, as you are of the belief that I am covering for Overlord, but my reasoning for choosing to save him on Day 1 is that he had a fairly rational approach and was making some fairly sound arguments and points. Additionally, I wasn't really as suspicious of him on Day 1 as I would say I am now.

[quote=The King of Eggs"]Sir_Scarfalot, Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North [Doctor Who], Town Political Manipulatior, DELETED Night 1.[/quote]
Wow. I did not catch this edit at all until you guys posted about it. I actually had suspicions on if Scarf was Harriet Jones.
My reasoning was:
1. He would constantly declare who he is (Something Harriet Jones was famous for in Doctor Who)
2. He was named a "Political manipulator". The only major political figures I could think of in Doctor Who terms were Harold Saxon and Harriet Jones. Harold would be scum, given the storyline, so that left me with thinking it was Harriet Jones. I never spoke up about this theory as I just thought I was reading too much into it, and that was even assuming Scarfs character was from Doctor Who.

I think it's safe to say that Scarf has a passive. It's probably called "Yes, we know who you are", and insists that every time he posts, he has to say "Sir Scarfalot, member of resplect".
Named "Yes, we know who you are" because that's what everyone says in response to Harriet Jones, as she always declares who she is with the iconic catchphrase "Harriet Jones, former prime minister!"

Nice to have you back Scarf. No hard feelings on me voting you on Day 1, I hope!

There's so much more stuff I need to read as I haven't had time to read everything that has been posted. I'm also gonna do a lot of rereading when I have some free time. I just wanted to address Alex's points, and react to Scarf's return, so that's it from me for now.

Well, that quote on Mod failed. Whoops.