Mindscrew Mafia 6.0

It's entirely possible that Alex felt backed into a corner by me outright requesting he state it, Electrix - and was hoping that his traitor buddy would protect him by luring your attention away. But that remains to be seen.

Electrix wrote:On Day 1 I chose to save Overlord.

Do you not think this ability got redirected to Sid?
(I was inclined to think that the roleblock and the protect were a combined ability, since that's what a Jailkeeper does, but I suppose it's possible we've got both a Doctor and a Roleblocker)

Electrix, what's your role name? For example, Scarfalot's is Town Political Manipulator (and mine is Town Antagoniser; as I assume Darth's is).

[quote="Supreme Overlord"]

Electrix wrote:On Day 1 I chose to save Overlord.

Do you not think this ability got redirected to Sid?
(I was inclined to think that the roleblock and the protect were a combined ability, since that's what a Jailkeeper does, but I suppose it's possible we've got both a Doctor and a Roleblocker)/quote]
I don't think so, but that doesn't mean it didn't. There is nothing in my role that suggests in any way that saving a person has it redirected to save someone else, but I suppose it's not impossible. Do you have any role ability/passive that prevents you from being saved, or if you are saved, it goes to somebody else? Or anything that may indicate something like that could happen?

If not, it could also be that something was done to Sid, he was found tied up and medicated (which again I believe is more trying to suggest he was drugged in a negative way, not a life saving way) and I happened to save you the same night, and they're two separate things.

Supreme Overlord wrote:Electrix, what's your role name? For example, Scarfalot's is Town Political Manipulator (and mine is Town Antagoniser; as I assume Darth's is).

My role is specifically called "Town Diagnostician". Given my character is actually a diagnostician, it's fairly self explanatory as to why it's named that way.
Are there any details you can give on why your role name is "Town Antagoniser"? Political manipulator makes sense for Scarf as he's named after an actual politician from Doctor Who, and mine would make sense, but how about yours?

I am just failing miserably at quotes today. My bad everyone.

Can you protect yourself Electrix? I assume no, but if you can i'd strongly recommend it xD
I think overlord is suggesting all night moves are being rotated by one.

Electrix wrote:Do you have any role ability/passive that prevents you from being saved, or if you are saved, it goes to somebody else? Or anything that may indicate something like that could happen?

I think everyone got redirected to the next person on the player list.  My ability on Darth got redirected to me; Darth's ability on Alex got redirected to Scarfalot; Alex's ability on me got no result (which makes sense to be as an untargetable Sid - but not, on reflection, as a merely protected Sid ... hmm).

Electrix wrote:Are there any details you can give on why your role name is "Town Antagoniser"? Political manipulator makes sense for Scarf as he's named after an actual politician from Doctor Who, and mine would make sense, but how about yours?

I think it's just that my role is all about my 'ancient enemy' Thalan - he's my antagonist; I'm his.

I suppose I should ask explicitly - Electrix, what does your 'save' do? Is it just protect them from death? Or make them untargetable to abilities, or prevent them from using abilities, or anything extra?

Alex Steiner wrote:

Darth Skywalkerbacca wrote:The amount of incorrect role reveals on investigation abilities does not seem to balance with the amount of investigation abilities in this game. Anybody else think that?
If Electrix had been lynched day one then all of these abilities would be for naught.
As such I'm going to FoS: Alex Steiner
I would like more information on your roles please otherwise this will be escalated into a vote.

I can chip in for both of these, since I have an investigation too. Without the exact wording, I illuminate a player with brilliant flames to reveal their innermost desires/role (soul?). Only I can discern their role that night, anyone else just sees blinding light. I am Chandra Nalaar, Town Pyromancer, from Magic: The Gathering. With my goggles I can stare into the flames that others can't (and the smoke I leave behind that spoils my reputation). I channel Red mana to cast my spells (but chickened out and picked Orange instead), and on seeing Sid's list of 4 colours so soon after Smoke, I wondered if there was something in the missing White (if we assume Black is Purple, which it commonly is in the artwork.

I have Red hair, and so have no Soul. I don't know anything about any other souls, but I made my claim 5/7 on the balance of probability that 1/6 others would also be a redhead. My role and abilities do not actually use the word Soul. I win when none but Town are alive (but given my shady passive and typical mindscrew, I wondered if the Town wasn't really the uninformed majority in this place).

Night 1, I investigated Supreme Overlord (of course), and I found no-one and nothing. At first I thought he'd evaded me using some power, and I didn't connect it to the jailer-effect on Sid until Overlord's helpful post about the global redirect. I assume that in the order of operations I am behind the Jailer, but ahead of other investigations.

I’ll have to softly Counter Claim this Alex. Even if:

Alex Steiner wrote:Lots of investigations in different flavours

Whilst my win con is that of a neutral survivor, I do have a passive “reveal” ability, meaning I can’t direct it like a proper investigation. This ability causes someone to be lit up in pretty lights (like fireworks) that corresponds to the win-con tag of that person. I won’t reveal the trigger as this wouldn’t help me or the town.

You could have easily constructed your backstory from these below breadcrumbs:

Sid_The_Kid wrote:

Supreme Overlord wrote:

Sid_The_Kid wrote:5 to lynch presently
4 factions, w're did split by war

…
And do you have any info on 4 factions?

…
Lolipops on fire, where he sits
4 colours dance amongst the flames
Red, Green, Blue, Purple
Reflected in the meadow, one and the same

Sid_The_Kid wrote:Thank you to whoever decided I needed help escaping the night
Unless by accident and you meant to help the poor man with a more serious plight

Little inconvenient, but at least I’m alive
Some information could helped us to strive
Alas I am no psychic, seer, or knave

Sid_The_Kid wrote:

Alex Steiner wrote:For now I want more of that info from Sid, to help filter out the noise, and deal with the caveats if they arise.

only one special smoke sadly, not an ability.
(This referring to the smokescreen/hidden text in role pms)

I was hoping to see some colors against the midnight blue (callback to my answer to favorite colors) so dark, everything is more vibrant at night.(referring to the fact although not limited to the night, my ability to see the lights is easier to draw conclusions from)
…

Whilst possible, you have a role to do with the colors, if so you are likely a faction based counter: a role who can shelter with “blinding light” someone’s true colors from onlooking eyes.

I find it more likely that you are what was discovered and are also not town.

Electrix wrote:Alright, well I guess there's not really an easy way to bring this up, so I'm just gonna rip the band aid off.

Alex Steiner wrote:I have a Town wincon.

This is a lie. I used the ability and the response I got was "This statement contains a lie". When I used this on Dark Vessel, the exact response was "To my knowledge, that post doesn't contain a lie."

Vote:Alex. FOS:Eggs

Supreme Overlord wrote:I suppose I should ask explicitly - Electrix, what does your 'save' do? Is it just protect them from death? Or make them untargetable to abilities, or prevent them from using abilities, or anything extra?

It's exact function is if I choose someone to save, it will prevent them from dying from something that would otherwise kill them. If nobody targeted you and I used my save on you, it would effectively do nothing. Me choosing to save you meant that if someone did decide to use an ability that would kill you, my save negated that entirely.

[quote=Supreme Overlord"]I think everyone got redirected to the next person on the player list. My ability on Darth got redirected to me; Darth's ability on Alex got redirected to Scarfalot; Alex's ability on me got no result (which makes sense to be as an untargetable Sid - but not, on reflection, as a merely protected Sid ... hmm).[/quote]
That's a pretty good theory on every action that night being rotated, but Sid being purely protected (per the rotation you suggest), would contradict this as you point out.

Dark Vessel wrote:Can you protect yourself Electrix? I assume no, but if you can i'd strongly recommend it xD

My ability specifies I can choose "one player". I don't know if that includes me or not though lol. It may be worth trying, at least.

I didn't quote the second thing you said supreme.. all because I missed a fucking quotation mark. This is just embarrassing LOL

Supreme Overlord wrote:It occurs to me it might be useful to keep a neutral survivor around, blocking the Town win con until both Darth and I can be killed, then triggering a Town win.  It is a bit of a long shot play, but it interests me.

Sid, can you elaborate on the requirements for your win? Is it as vague as 'survive until endgame', or do you have any details about what might trigger endgame?

it’s straightforward, my aim is to survive until the end of night 3, I do not know if this will mean that the game will end or if I’ll just jump in a box and disappear.

Sid, see if you can clarify with Eggs whether you'll just leave the game upon your victory, but I'm inclined to be happy to let you live until then and see if you vanish of your own accord (and lynch you with extreme prejudice if you don't, of course!).


BTW Electrix, if you ask Eggs nicely (I'd use bold text to get his attention), he might fix your tags.


Alex, is your Night 1 result more consistent with the ability not working (either due to you being blocked or Sid being untargetable), or with Sid not having anything to find (which might make sense given he's a neutral)?

I feel like there's a contradiction in there somewhere, but I'm currently inclined to believe all individuals involved, so I'm trying to see if there's a way to resolve it that's consistent with everyone's claims (Alex being roleblocked is a possibility that only just occurred to me, but is adding extra details just to force a fit).

Sir Scarfalot, Member of Resplect

Well, I’m annoyed about having to reapply votes. Vote: Dark Vessel

I’ve got one more one-shot ability, it should save a townie from being lynched, so we definitely need to lynch someone.

And I can confirm that I am Harriet Jones from Dr. Who, and I lose my abilities if I don’t write that thing at the top.

Sir Scarfalot, Member of Resplect

Sadly I didn’t get any particular information from my short stay in the grave, but my new lease on life is limited; I will die again in 2 cycles (possibly less, considering my power role).

I really don't think you're gonna get the end you want from lynching me, Scarf Remember, if i'm mafia with Electrix, I WAS THE ONE WHO RAISED SUSPICION ON HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE. I just logic'd that he's probably good.

Electrix, can ya join the vote conga on Alex?

Does that ability only save townies, Scarf? Or would it save a mafia?

Sir_Scarfalot wrote:I’ve got one more one-shot ability, it should save a townie from being lynched, so we definitely need to lynch someone.

Another not-a-lynch? By the way, did you cause the Day 1 not-a-lynch, or just knew about it?

Sir_Scarfalot wrote:Sadly I didn’t get any particular information from my short stay in the grave, but my new lease on life is limited; I will die again in 2 cycles (possibly less, considering my power role).

Did you bring yourself back, or did someone/thing else resurrect you?


Dark Vessel, just to clarify - at the moment my suspicion is that Electrix is town and you're not.  I think the lie detection gave an incorrect result, not that you're a scum team.

I don't know why you wouldn't put me and Electrix in the same camp, whatever camp you class us as, Overlord. I was the first to unvote him when he was on the lynching table - admittedly this was after it wouldn't be lethal, but still.

All the better! Let's see if Alex is indeed as pure as he says he is...

Dark Vessel wrote:It's entirely possible that Alex felt backed into a corner by me outright requesting he state it, Electrix - and was hoping that his traitor buddy would protect him by luring your attention away. But that remains to be seen.

I admit I did feel backed into it, knowing my unfavourable passive, and how it would look if Electrix found it false. That's why I didn't post it right away, agonising over it while I composed my other posts. In the end I rationalised my way into thinking it'd be fine and just posted it. There really wasn't another option for me, it seemed worse to claim "I get investigated as non-Town" right after Dark Vessel had challenged me to be investigated as Town or not. It is what it is.

Sid_The_Kid wrote:Whilst possible, you have a role to do with the colors, if so you are likely a faction based counter: a role who can shelter with “blinding light” someone’s true colors from onlooking eyes.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. MTG has spells cast with mana in 5 colours (White/Blue/Black/Red/Green), and I (Chandra) am the face of Red in the marketing, with my iconic goggles. Early in Day 1 I wondered if there were more planeswalkers involved, maybe representing the other colours, hence asking what others favourites might be. Fearing being too obvious, I chose Orange instead of Red, but I think my own breadcrumbs can back my identity as Chandra when combined with the "bolt the bird" reference in a modpost and the fact no one else has claimed MTG.

My very existence is tied to colours, just the nature of my origins in MTG as a pyromancer, and not from your riddle.

That's a very interesting claim about an analogous ability to mine. The specifics are quite different (I see the player clearly through the blinding firelight; you see someone lit up with a colour if they do some trigger), but there is some conceptual overlap in "revealing lights".

Supreme Overlord wrote:Alex's ability on me got no result (which makes sense to be as an untargetable Sid - but not, on reflection, as a merely protected Sid ... hmm)

With Sid claiming another type of investigation, it's possible I was blocked or prevented in some other way (something about Sid himself, something else about Electrix's protection, something done to me?). It's nice to get confirmation from another person about the targeting redirect, so I can dismiss the idea I was still targeting Overlord with my investigate when I found nothing.

Sid_The_Kid wrote:it’s straightforward, my aim is to survive until the end of night 3, I do not know if this will mean that the game will end or if I’ll just jump in a box and disappear.

That's a fairly interesting deadline, especially seeing how Day and Night 1 ended with Sir Scarfalot alive after effectively dying twice, with no other kills. Now Scarf is saying he dies again (for good?) in two more cycles (which by my reckoning is the end of Night 3), exactly when you say you have to live to win.

If Neutral Sid and Town Scarf both vanish at dawn of D4, it changes the dynamics dramatically. If Sid is lying about the deadline, or lives through it as a neutral, that's really bad for Town in what's presumably a pretty tight endgame. By then, Darth and Overlord's feud has either killed one of them, or they're both around to turn the votes for their wincon which does not match the Town's goal of eliminating non-Town (assuming Overlord is Town; I guess Town lynching Scum-Overlord on Day 4 is a win for the Town, but that scenario seems too unlikely).

With Electrix's investigation, I am inclined to believe it works as he claims. In my case it is straightforward: my passive makes me look non-Town when investigated, and that is taken to its logical conclusion by the Mod reading my post. It makes sense to me that he would say False.

Given my passive, I can imagine someone having the inverse, and coming up Town no matter what. All we need is a third ability that stabs anyone asking tricky questions.

However, by process of elimination (and grudgingly coming around on the Phoebus/Thalan Town mirror in light of the true depth of investigation shenanigans and this Scarf/Sid N3 deadline changing the apparent balance of power), I think Overlord is right that one link in the Electrix investigation of Dark Vessel is incorrect. Perhaps Electrix is scum and lied to get a Town ally, and then I got unlucky when he wanted to keep Dark Vessel on-side "investigating" me and finding a falsehood no matter my passive. Perhaps Dark Vessel is scum and has a passive the opposite of mine that fooled Town Electrix from the start.

The information I am working with for this assumption:

• The setup has a lot in investigation and counter-investigation shenanigans, with a lot of potential mistakes to stir up trouble.
  

• The setup required people to live a day or so to prevent some degenerate early endgame before the shenanigans could really set in, and the Town needed extra flip information from Day 1 without a death.
  

• Even with that setup, a confirmed Town flip with a powerful double vote rose to serve the Town for two more days. This could have been planned from the start like the D1 UNIT interference, or it could be a Town ability to bring someone back. In the former case it would presumably also revive a non-Town player post-flip, where the latter is only for Town to benefit.
  

• Ninja Edit: Another modpost, another no-Lynch Town flip?
  

• Sid is at best neutral, and counter to my Town wincon, but it's implied that this changes end of N3 (perhaps by becoming Town and voting with us D4, through leaving the game entirely, or joining whoever inevitably wins in that moment through their own calculated wincons where D4 cannot occur).
  

• Darth and Overlord would both be Town, but their rivalry means they're a liability to the Town and will spoil Town endgames with infighting if they're still alive.
  

• Scarf and myself are proven Town to me, but Scarf has an expiry date on his powerful ability that coincides with Sid's earlier wincon claim.
  

• I previously assumed Electrix and Dark Vessel had a logical faction relationship from the circumstances of the Day 1 claim, but the investigation shenanigans have weakened that strict relationship to a fuzzier one.
  

• There is an anti-Town team that shares information, not just Town vs itself and Neutrals. The information sharing and need to take over the Town defines the anti-Town Scum faction.
  

I have been trying to fit a team of two Scum roles into the set of 5 that aren't Scarf and I. My intuition of game balance requires it, even if you bet on Town investigation infighting.
Sid is already non-Town, so it's a smaller step to upgrade to Scum from Neutral. Would have to pair with someone else, so I'll keep him in mind as I move down the list. A neutral spoiler effect feels appropriate to have, anyway.
Darth and Overlord would be a galaxy brain Scum pair, but unless they had some intensive N0 planning, I don't buy it. So I treat 1 or more of them as Town. Of the two, Darth is more believably that, as first claimer and confirmed by Overlord. I haven't seen anything to tie Sid to Overlord as buddies, so I'll assume both Darth and Overlord are Town for now, since their rivalry is good idea to weaken the Town in entertaining ways, like Sid's claim does.
Electrix and Dark Vessel remain as my options for Scum, with Electrix claiming the Dark Vessel was truthful when claiming Town Day 1. Before I was investigated, I had been treating Electrix's ability as trustworthy since I felt that Town or Scum Electrix is truthful in that spot, so I trusted Dark Vessel as Town either way. Dark Vessel could still be Scum in a scenario with Town Electrix being fooled by a passive ability like mine, but Scum Electrix just saying Dark Vessel was Town to get an ally still feels more probable between them.

What this boils down to is this: At this stage, I believe there must be at least one explicitly anti-Town role among Electrix and Dark Vessel, and that the possibility of their Scum pairing is worth considering (where before I dismissed it entirely). If it's only one of them, they're paired with Sid or Overlord.

Given the new information about today's lynch not killing Town, I think there's a strong argument to lynch someone in the pairs, and probably Electrix ahead of Dark Vessel or Overlord. We have the Day 1 information that Scarf's {???} worked on Electrix, and his flip gives information about Dark Vessel and myself via his investigation claims.
Unvote. Vote: Electrix, FoS: Dark Vessel
Sid obviously still needs to go for my wincon, but not a good lynch today. Overlord is the final Scum if only 1 of Electrix/Dark Vessel are Scum and Sid is neutral.

A few minor thing:

Can someone who knows MTG quickly confirm what I said about how the game depends on colours, since I don't think that my colours claim should be part of the facts at issue.

Alex Steiner wrote:I previously assumed Electrix and Dark Vessel had a logical faction relationship

By this I mean there was a logical rule that connected their factions (if Electrix is Town, then Dark Vessel is Town, etc), not that they are necessarily the same faction.

It seems like everyone has claimed some kind of investigation except Dark Vessel (Sid colours, Scarf vote, Darth/Overlord pairing, Electrix truth, my blinding flames). Only Scarf's isn't explicitly once per cycle, so it might only apply to his first vote, or first non-Town target, or something else to bring it down in power. I would still like Scarf to rotate his vote to try to find the {???}, to get more data on it as an investigation tool for the Town.



I am feeling pretty mindscrewed by the apparent setup and reveals, so good job.

Sir Scarfalot, Member of Resplect

Alrighty, I’m feeling much less sus of Dark Vessel now, so Unvote

Vote: Alex Steiner as he seems more likely to be lynched from current voting and confirming he’s town will help massively. Remember, it’s safe, so if I were him I’d self-vote, unless there’s an amazingly strong reason to vote Electrix.

Sir Scarfalot, Member of Resplect

Oh, it wasn’t me that resurrected me, sadly I didn’t get any info on that.