Re: Mindscrew Mafia 6.0

by The King of Eggs Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:56 am

Sid_The_Kid wrote:
Supreme Overlord wrote:Sid, do you have anything in your role that indicates what you would show up as if someone investigated you?
Indeed, I will show as neutral, or as a color that would represent neutral.

Rules Infraction - Day 2

Sid_The_Kid wrote:
Alex Steiner wrote:
Darth Skywalkerbacca wrote:The amount of incorrect role reveals on investigation abilities does not seem to balance with the amount of investigation abilities in this game. Anybody else think that?
If Electrix had been lynched day one then all of these abilities would be for naught.
As such I'm going to FoS: Alex Steiner
I would like more information on your roles please otherwise this will be escalated into a vote.

I can chip in for both of these, since I have an investigation too. Without the exact wording, I illuminate a player with brilliant flames to reveal their innermost desires/role (soul?). Only I can discern their role that night, anyone else just sees blinding light. I am Chandra Nalaar, Town Pyromancer, from Magic: The Gathering. With my goggles I can stare into the flames that others can't (and the smoke I leave behind that spoils my reputation). I channel Red mana to cast my spells (but chickened out and picked Orange instead), and on seeing Sid's list of 4 colours so soon after Smoke, I wondered if there was something in the missing White (if we assume Black is Purple, which it commonly is in the artwork.

I have Red hair, and so have no Soul. I don't know anything about any other souls, but I made my claim 5/7 on the balance of probability that 1/6 others would also be a redhead. My role and abilities do not actually use the word Soul. I win when none but Town are alive (but given my shady passive and typical mindscrew, I wondered if the Town wasn't really the uninformed majority in this place).

Night 1, I investigated Supreme Overlord (of course), and I found no-one and nothing. At first I thought he'd evaded me using some power, and I didn't connect it to the jailer-effect on Sid until Overlord's helpful post about the global redirect. I assume that in the order of operations I am behind the Jailer, but ahead of other investigations.
I’ll have to softly Counter Claim this Alex. Even if:
Alex Steiner wrote:Lots of investigations in different flavours

Whilst my win con is that of a neutral survivor, I do have a passive “reveal” ability, meaning I can’t direct it like a proper investigation. This ability causes someone to be lit up in pretty lights (like fireworks) that corresponds to the win-con tag of that person. I won’t reveal the trigger as this wouldn’t help me or the town.

You could have easily constructed your backstory from these below breadcrumbs:
Sid_The_Kid wrote:
Supreme Overlord wrote:
Sid_The_Kid wrote:5 to lynch presently
4 factions, w're did split by war
…
And do you have any info on 4 factions?
…
Lolipops on fire, where he sits
4 colours dance amongst the flames
Red, Green, Blue, Purple
Reflected in the meadow, one and the same
Sid_The_Kid wrote:Thank you to whoever decided I needed help escaping the night
Unless by accident and you meant to help the poor man with a more serious plight

Little inconvenient, but at least I’m alive
Some information could helped us to strive
Alas I am no psychic, seer, or knave

Sid_The_Kid wrote:
Alex Steiner wrote:For now I want more of that info from Sid, to help filter out the noise, and deal with the caveats if they arise.
only one special smoke sadly, not an ability.
(This referring to the smokescreen/hidden text in role pms)

I was hoping to see some colors against the midnight blue (callback to my answer to favorite colors) so dark, everything is more vibrant at night.(referring to the fact although not limited to the night, my ability to see the lights is easier to draw conclusions from)
…

Whilst possible, you have a role to do with the colors, if so you are likely a faction based counter: a role who can shelter with “blinding light” someone’s true colors from onlooking eyes.

I find it more likely that you are what was discovered and are also not town.
Electrix wrote:Alright, well I guess there's not really an easy way to bring this up, so I'm just gonna rip the band aid off.

Alex Steiner wrote:I have a Town wincon.
This is a lie. I used the ability and the response I got was "This statement contains a lie". When I used this on Dark Vessel, the exact response was "To my knowledge, that post doesn't contain a lie."
Vote:Alex. FOS:Eggs

Rules Infraction - Day 2

Sid_The_Kid wrote:
Supreme Overlord wrote:It occurs to me it might be useful to keep a neutral survivor around, blocking the Town win con until both Darth and I can be killed, then triggering a Town win. It is a bit of a long shot play, but it interests me.

Sid, can you elaborate on the requirements for your win? Is it as vague as 'survive until endgame', or do you have any details about what might trigger endgame?
it’s straightforward, my aim is to survive until the end of night 3, I do not know if this will mean that the game will end or if I’ll just jump in a box and disappear.

Rules Infraction - Day 2

by Darth Skywalkerbacca Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:15 am

The King of Eggs wrote:
Welcome to my Domain!

A Strange Vwoorp! noise echos around the Meadow, The noose you use to lynch your suspects glows with a golden light, you sense it will not hurt a Town member today

I would just like to point out that hurt and kill are two different things. Eggs could very well just be promising a town member a painless death.

Also I can confirm the MTG colours association for Alex. Not trying to confirm his role just that those two things are intrinsically linked in the real world.

We have all kind of been taking Electrix claim at face value but it does seem to be a lot more powerful in its directness than the other claimed investigation roles without any of the drawbacks, unless I have missed something which is possible.

by Alex Steiner Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:12 am

No {???} vote on me, which means if it can only vote non-Town it isn't affected by my passive, or something else. Can you give any more information about how you think it works, what exactly determines the effect? Can you try cycling to any of the suspicious people to test it out? Ideally I'd like you to leave it on Electrix.

I would self-vote to stop the Town from wasting the Day, but I'd much rather see Electrix flip for the flow on to other information. As Darth said, we've taken the claim at face value but no one has tested his abilities or claims. Only Dark Vessel and myself who know our roles and abilities can interpret it. Flipping us doesn't confirm Electrix's trustworthiness as much as flipping his confirms ours.

by Alex Steiner Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:28 am

On protection or similar abilities, I propose that protecting anyone confirmed Town is more valuable than Electrix. Assuming the lynch today flips Town and lives, there are mindgames to play between protecting them or Scarf to prevent a kill. If Electrix actually dies as non-Town, then it's a simpler question.

We have still not had a public discussion on how we should handle ability redirects, or how they interact with any D3 claims. I'm assuming that anyone with specific information on the effect isn't sharing because they aren't Town. Locking in our expectations now makes it easier for Town to judge claimed actions and results without the Scum being able to justify everything in hindsight.

There will either be 7 or 6 alive going in N2, and on N1 the targets were rotated down 1 on the initial player list before being executed or interacting. If you wanted to protect Sir Scarfalot, who should you target such that on a miss you're still happy with the result? I am above him in the list, so if I've flipped Town then that's a fine outcome. Dark Vessel is below, which from Electrix's perspective is just as confirmed. Targeting me instead goes to Scarf if it's one down, or Electrix if it goes 1 up. And so on.

Who should I investigate? I'd like to target a cluster if unconfirmed people, the more suspicious the better. I don't really think the blinding side effect matters to the Town, but let me know if you think I'm mistaken. Eg Sid is between Overlord and Electrix, and I'd be glad for any of them if Electrix hasn't been flipped already.

What if it's down 2 names instead of 1 and keeps increasing daily? What if it's decided by someone as an ability, so they can respond to our guesses? More Town voices on this issue is good for this.

by Darth Skywalkerbacca Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:14 pm

I don't think talk of redirects really helps us that much considering it could be anything, for some reason you are limiting it to the list that was used Day 1 and assuming that will hold, which we have no idea of whatsoever. I only really see this as productive if the events of Day 2 establish a pattern.

Also I feel like we have forgotten and passed over the subject that I apparently felt drained after last night. Anybody want to own up to that? Promise I won't be mad.

by Supreme Overlord Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:35 pm

Sid, do you have any information on whether it's still 5 to lynch? If not, my assumption would be 4 with seven players, which puts Alex at L-1. I'd be happy to hammer Alex, but I'd like to get through a bit more discussion first.

Scarfalot, I echo Alex - can you elaborate on what you think your ??? vote does, and why you think so? You said:

Sir_Scarfalot wrote:To clarify my last post, I’m pretty sure that I am the ??? vote, but only when I am voting against mafia. Though the lack of a negative result confirming that interpretation of my role is something to keep in mind.

This doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in me to take it with certainty.

Also, is the keyword 'mafia' in that ability?

FWIW, I intend to act as if the ability rotation is the same Night 2 (ie I will investigate Dark Vessel, hoping to hit Darth). I've been trying to avoid getting too much into meta, but similar rotations in other Mindscrew games (Eggs and others) have been constant - more a puzzle to be solved than endless chaos. But ultimately I think it's up to each individual to decide.

Dark Vessel, sorry if it seems I'm ignoring your arguments/defence - I'm not so much going off your gameplay right now as I am what I suspect the role interactions to be. I'm a bit low on time IRL to do a deep reread, and it's something of a moot point since it doesn't seem likely you'll be a lynch target today. The short version is I can see any of the four town-scum possibilities between you and Electrix as plausible, with nowhere near the certainty of 'it couldn't be' that you claim.

I'm going to do a bit of a reread and hopefully soonish come back with a list of all claimed Night 1 abilities.
(Note to self: Scarfalot's resurrection did not happen Night 1; they returned Day 2.)

by Supreme Overlord Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:16 pm

By the way, by my count, Sid is up to 7 Rules Infractions. 3 more and you get a vote; Darth got to 15 total Day 1 with only the vote as an apparent effect.

Night 1 abilities, as far as I can tell:

Supreme Overlord targeted Darth with a Thalan-investigate, hit Overlord
Sid_The_Kid has not claimed anything
Electrix targeted Overlord with a doc save, hit Sid
Alex Steiner targeted Overlord with blinding light, hit Sid ('found no-one and nothing')
Sir_Scarfalot has not claimed anything
Dark Vessel has not claimed anything
Darth Skywalkerbacca targeted Alex with a Phoebus-investigate, hit Scarfalot

Someone deleted Scarfalot (presumably targeted Alex)
Someone drained Darth (presumably targeted Dark Vessel)
Someone tied up Sid (presumably targeted Overlord)

Something? hit either Alex (Electrix) or Sid (Overlord?) to prevent blinding light from investigating Sid? Unless that's just what the neutral result looks like to Alex.

That's three unclaimed abilities, and three people who didn't claim an ability ... just sayin' ...
But really, I wouldn't read too much into that - especially if Sid's 'tied up' means 'roleblocked'. If 'deleted' is a scum kill it probably doubles up with another ability.

It does seem to me that Electrix and Scarfalot (and Darth and I) have just about exhausted their power budget with their claimed abilities, but Alex and Sid both seem to have more room - and this list illustrates to me that I don't think we know anything about Dark Vessel's role (other than the character name).

(Note: I personally don't require further claims at this point - share if you think it's helpful, but there's no need from my perspective.)

And just the same info reformatted into who was hit - for who was targeted, just look one above them:

Supreme Overlord - Thalan-investigate
Sid_The_Kid - tied up, doc save, blinding light
Electrix
Alex Steiner
Sir_Scarfalot - deleted, Phoebus-investigate
Dark Vessel
Darth Skywalkerbacca - drained

by Supreme Overlord Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:21 pm

And the fabled triple post! But I only just realised this, and it's important to me:

Scarfalot, do you have anything in your role that indicates what you would show up as if someone investigated you?

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:53 pm

Supreme Overlord wrote:and this list illustrates to me that I don't think we know anything about Dark Vessel's role (other than the character name).

I didn't want to make myself a target, and thought secrecy would work. But fine.
I have The Flame. Kinda fitting given other abilities, heh. I win with town, OR I can win with whoever kills me. Or whoever kills them, ad infinitum. In a way, I am immortal. There is one weakness, though; people can choose to not accept it, which will kill me permanently. Hence i'm not particularly eager to test out my immortality.

This has an... Interesting side effect. I can communicate with whoever kills me (or them, or them) in private. My presence will always be in the game, so long as the Flame lives.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:00 pm

It's OP in one respect (it's really, REALLY hard for me to lose if people are nice) - but in the other respect, I have no abilities that are really useful in investigation.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:02 pm

This is why I chose 'white' as my favourite colour, earlier: white is light, it is energy... Which is what fire is.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:12 pm

Admittedly, this means that if I die tomorrow by Sid's hand, I could win with him on D3... Interesting.

by SolVI Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:28 pm

I've been thinking about this since I woke up this morning.

I know we all seem to agree that everyone has a passive that reveals they are the opposite role to what they actually are (Townie gets revealed as Scum, Scum gets revealed as Townie), but I have been questioning whether my lie detector actually is flipped.

I am not saying it isn't, and there's nothing in my role that suggests so, one way or another. But we are rationalising that our role passives that cause this opposite role reveal are from being investigated. My lie detecting ability essentially verifies whether a statement is true/false. Do we all agree that definitely constitutes an "investigation"?
If not, we may need to reassess this. I'm willing to accept whatever conclusion we come to, one way or another.

I am raising question now because I don't want us to base any of our decisions on a misinterpretation or misunderstanding. I am new to the game of Mafia/Mindscrew. Perhaps it's obvious my lie detecting ability is considered an "investigative" ability, but I still wanted to check and make sure. If it's a simple "Well duh, of course it is", then I don't have any concerns or issues with whatever decisions we make based off the lie detector's findings.

I personally don't have really any doubts about our abilities being "rotated" across each other. My save on Overlord rotated to Sid, etc. It would make sense and it definitely lines up with other findings that have been made.

I see that Alex is fairly inclined to vote for me/Dark Vessel, on the basis that we could be a pair. Though I see how that can be interpreted, I don't particularly think it's wise to vote for one of us based on the fact that we are possibly together based on some fairly loose evidence.
Could be digging myself a deeper hole here, but I actually used my lie detecting ability on DV as he was coming down on me pretty hard on Day 1, after my mistake. My thought process, though petty, was to try and see if I could go down swinging, and find something to use against DV, so I used my ability. If it revealed him as scum, then I'd have my petty revenge, and if it revealed him as town, then it would at least give us some useful information. In my position, where I truly thought I was going to die from being voted out at the time, I figured there was absolutely nothing to lose from doing that.

I can see why people could view that as a pairing between me and DV, but I figured I'd at least try to explain it a little more from my point of view. A lot of it is going to be word of mouth, though.

Vote: Alex Steiner
Getting confirmation of Alex being town will be a big help, and will help put a lot of my suspicions to rest, and massively help with some other thoughts and suspicions I've accrued over the last few days of playing.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:01 pm

I definitely have no flip or weirdness with investigation, I can say that much.

by Darth Skywalkerbacca Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:22 pm

Dark Vessel wrote:
Supreme Overlord wrote:and this list illustrates to me that I don't think we know anything about Dark Vessel's role (other than the character name).

I didn't want to make myself a target, and thought secrecy would work. But fine.
I have The Flame. Kinda fitting given other abilities, heh. I win with town, OR I can win with whoever kills me. Or whoever kills them, ad infinitum. In a way, I am immortal. There is one weakness, though; people can choose to not accept it, which will kill me permanently. Hence i'm not particularly eager to test out my immortality.

This has an... Interesting side effect. I can communicate with whoever kills me (or them, or them) in private. My presence will always be in the game, so long as the Flame lives.

Do you have any more specifics on this because this does not sound like effectively immortal to me. To me this sounds like the only way to kill you is via a lynch, a non-targeted kill so no specific "person" kills you. Otherwise you flip factions if targeted by a kill ability.

In my opinion it would be safer just to lynch you now and prevent the flip from ever occuring, unless town has a kill we don't know about there's no way to convert you back once you have flipped.

Vote: Dark Vessel

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:04 pm

I do die, but I am able to communicate with my killer. A Lynch fires the same thing, I just get to choose who I pass on to. And then if that lynchee gets killed later, I pass on to their killer.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:06 pm

I die like you, but I am never truly out of the game, AND my win condition matches my killer, or their killer etc. I can't vote or do anything like that, I can only be a voice in their ear.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:07 pm

So effectively, all lynching me will do is transfer my consciousness into some unknown 3rd party of my choice. And, you know, kill someone who may have just been at the center of uncovering a mafia Wink

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:10 pm

We'll see what happens with Alex. But effectively, if you're mafia, all killing me will really do is give you a little voice in your ear xD I don't even have any investigative actions!

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:31 pm

We can't lynch townies today anyway.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:45 pm

Also: I win with the town, OR I win with the current holder of the flame. This means that I can never become 100% mafia, I can become neutral to the town/mafia conflict at worst.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:47 pm

There are thus only 2 ways I can fail to fulfil my wincon:
1) Someone turns down the Flame (and the town loses)
2) The game ends early (e.g. Sid winning tomorrow will screw us all over)

by Supreme Overlord Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:14 pm

That's four votes on Alex, so potentially a lynch.

Scarfalot still hasn't elaborated on the ??? vote, grumble.

Dark Vessel, interesting claim. Why did you choose that moment to reveal it, though?

Dark Vessel wrote:I didn't want to make myself a target, and thought secrecy would work. But fine.

As far as I could tell, secrecy was working for you.

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:44 pm

It was precisely because you highlighted me, Overlord. Leaving my abilities a mystery makes me more suspicious, and I feel like this was a good time.

Plus, the ability itself IS fairly harmless. It just gives me alternate routes to win, and a form of immortality - I was avoiding saying anything on principle, but there are multiple people around with what I consider far more tempting abilities to target for mafia (investigative roles)

by Dark Vessel Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:45 pm

Namely, Electrix and Alex (assuming Alex isn't making it up)

by Sponsored content